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wl ©   (2013-05-18 16:12) [0]

I don’t know when and what has changed, (and most importantly HOW), but for some reason I stopped feeling an internal rejection of what the program should be paid for (unless of course the horse price tag is broken there).
I don’t really like it, but the worst thing is, I did not notice the moment when I was brainwashed.



brother ©   (2013-05-18 16:14) [1]

did you realize that software development is the same work and you need to pay for it?



Palladin ©   (2013-05-18 16:46) [2]

that's all they
http://lurkmore.to/Zog



Пит   (2013-05-18 16:49) [3]

but for the last 10 years I have not ceased to be amazed HOW a programmer may not understand that a program costs money. Ok, some kind of far from IT, the logic is primitive there, I didn’t type anything, I just copied it, made a duplicate on my own, it doesn’t cost anything, I can make a million of such copies, why pay.

I understand when a person openly admits to himself - yes, this is theft, but since no one is punished for this - his own.

But when a programmer really develops the theory that paying for software is absurd by definition, that there is essentially no point of theft (think, I stole a certain sequence of magnetization of the disk surface or the type of such nonsense).

This is how two things can get along in one head, that he should be paid for writing a program, and at the same time, that the program should be free. Nobody knows better than a programmer what efforts are invested even in programs that are primitive at first glance, how at night you can sit in the debugger looking for a bug or work for months on implementing some kind of feature. I can’t understand the paradox, so whoever explains it will be directly grateful.



Palladin ©   (2013-05-18 16:57) [4]


> Pete (18.05.13 16: 49) [3]

and why the "last 10 years"? before this program were free?



брат Птибурдукова   (2013-05-18 16:59) [5]


> wl © (18.05.13/16/12 XNUMX:XNUMX)
Well, here’s how ... I’m buying if 1) it’s easier (more convenient) to buy than to find + download + break, or 2) the program / book / film is really awesome and I want to encourage the author.

The problem is that it is precisely those authors who I would not pay for the obligation to pay ...



"Добрый Сок"   (2013-05-18 17:05) [6]


> I can not understand the paradox

I think the logic is this: If you asked to magnetize yourself, write software - they take money.
And if it has already been written, money has been taken - then there is nothing to pay for.
The fact that much less is taken in advance for serious programs is forgotten.
Those. nobody win7 for ~ 2 000 rubles is not going to write.
Basically, IMHO, it’s those who just write to order, get money, and that’s it. And his program doesn’t need anyone else (yes, stupidly, it won’t do)

ps
I myself agree that software costs money. But sometimes I steal



TUser ©   (2013-05-18 17:48) [7]

1. I believe that paying for software is not absurd by definition, and it is normal that software can cost money, but I do not consider it normal that monopolists dictate their terms. I believe that the prices of paid software for non-commercial use are artificially high today.

2. I believe that the calculation of losses incurred by the manufacturer from the so-called piracy is obviously exaggerated, as it is based on the thesis that all users of pirated copies could buy a legal copy. In fact, if there weren’t pirated copies (well, it’s strictly forbidden), their users would prefer mostly free analogs, and the manufacturer would not get anything.

3. In connection with paragraph 2, I consider the fight against the so-called piracy is great stupidity, because and with piracy, and with a severe restriction on it, the manufacturer still does not care much. Real sales of user software in Russia for individuals are growing due to the pre-installation of Windows on computers sold, and not in connection with the fight against the so-called piracy.

4. To take loot, including large, from commercial users (a separate question - what are commercial users), - I consider it normal. I believe that the software should be mostly free for non-commercial use. For monopoly is evil. And non-monopoly manufacturers have competition, and they make their products free of charge (with limited functionality or with advertising), such as gmail or even skype. That is, such a scheme is commercially viable.

5. I have not recently put pirates at my place, but for reasons different from the fact that this is theft, and this type is impossible.



clickmaker ©   (2013-05-18 17:50) [8]

It’s one thing when an old woman is stolen an already beggarly pension, another thing is when someone once again puts himself a new cracked masterpiece from MS: Bilgeits will not pass on this for pasta with sausages. IMHO, things are incomparable



TUser ©   (2013-05-18 18:24) [9]

when someone once again sets himself a new grunted masterpiece from MS: Bilgeits will not pass on this for pasta with sausages.

Well, if everyone puts it ... IMHO, a reasonable alternative to both the current frenzy and the free permission to copy without any control at all is this: If commercial use - pay, if for personal purposes, for training, for all kinds of civil projects there - for free. There are many questions, for example, whether the use of software by officials is considered paid (well, we pay taxes for their tables and chairs - which is already there) or non-profit, do we consider a paid university to be commercial or education, etc. But overall, something like that. IMHO.



Пит   (2013-05-18 18:45) [10]


> but I do not think it is normal that monopolists dictate their conditions.
> I believe that the prices of paid software for non-commercial use
> today artificially inflated.

here, one more surprising opinion. What kind of software monopoly can we talk about? There are giants, yes. But aren't they giants because they write good software? And it’s their right, what kind of garbage is this, a certain team made a program and believes that it costs SO MUCH. Another person comes and says - well, in general, you did a good job, but the price is too high, I’m probably my own. This is nonsense, no?

After all, the giants do not have access to unique natural resources or something like that, they captured the field and there is no competition. There you have it - open technologies, compilers, documentation - the car of this whole thing. Compete, try, write your super program, who's stopping?

But no, it doesn’t come out. But anyway - these are too expensive to do.

How does this differ from the opinion - Lambordginis are cool cars, but something expensive, inadequate - I’m better?



Дмитрий С ©   (2013-05-18 19:34) [11]


> How does this differ from the opinion-cool cars
> but what is expensive, inadequate-I'm better than mine?

It would be just as easy - they would steal.

I believe that anyone can take what he can take. In this case, everyone decides what he can and what not.

I myself bought several programs because of laziness in search of broken versions. I remember there was another case, I urgently needed a program, I don’t remember which one, but there was a whole procedure to buy it: registration with confirmation of soap and so on and so forth - the result - I downloaded and put a broken one.

By the way, most of all I bought programs from AppStore and MarketPlace because of their low cost. And Sony did not give a single ruble with its horseback tariffs.



TUser ©   (2013-05-18 20:05) [12]

Чем это отличается от мнения - ламбордгини классные машины, но че то дорогие, неадекватно - я сворую лучше?

The fact that the lamborghini is status consumption, and the desktop OS is, in fact, an essential item. Yes, I am aware of Linux. I even know the people who use it.

In fact, a company becomes a monopolist in a business such as common software or, say, technology, acquires power that nobody actually gave it. Even if a monopoly position is won due to product quality. A modern person cannot do without a computer, right? Well, theoretically it can, but it will be deprived of many seemingly normal possibilities. In the cave, you can also live, theoretically. And the Intel processor and the Windows OS will be on the computer, and it will not go anywhere (judging by the actual distribution of both) - almost certainly. And, therefore, Intel and MS can dictate the price to it. And not just the price, by the way.

Our relations with energy, water supply, etc. are similar. The pipe to the house comes from the Mosvodokanal - and nowhere from it. And somehow people decided the prices for such services natural monopolies to regulate is a common practice throughout the world. I see no reason for the software situation to be different.



RDen ©   (2013-05-18 20:35) [13]

> wl © (18.05.13/16/12 XNUMX:XNUMX)

I bring you back to Earth - you buy software, thousand for 100 rubles, and you can only work on one computer ... while there are lots of broken versions in the net. What do we do? )



Алканавт расправил плечи   (2013-05-18 20:40) [14]


> RDen © (18.05.13 20: 35) [13]
explain, for it is not clear.



alexdn ©   (2013-05-18 20:48) [15]

> wl © (18.05.13/16/12 XNUMX:XNUMX)
> I do not know when and what has changed
Organizationally, a person pays not for the program but for the years of its development ..



RDen ©   (2013-05-18 21:14) [16]


> Alkanaut squared his shoulders (18.05.13/20/40 14:XNUMX) [XNUMX]
>
>
>> RDen © (18.05.13/20/35 13:XNUMX) [XNUMX]
> explain, for it is not clear.


Well, I asked the leadership to find software that provides solutions to the necessary problems. Found. The cost of 75 TR for one workplace. The key can be transferred 10 times per year. I want to work on a working computer, come home and work at home ... and figs there. Well? Having bought PS loot (not small for me), I, in fact, cannot use it.



Eraser ©   (2013-05-18 21:17) [17]


> wl © (18.05.13/16/12 XNUMX:XNUMX)


> I do not really like it, but the worst thing, I did not notice
> the moment when I was brainwashed.

every time u is puzzled when I hear such words from programmers. despite the fact that programmers are the most stigmatized of "copywriters." the logic is strange, to say the least.



Eraser ©   (2013-05-18 21:18) [18]


> Pete (18.05.13 16: 49) [3]

+



RDen ©   (2013-05-18 21:19) [19]


> RDen © (18.05.13 21: 14) [16]

sorry sorry
PS (software tool) = Software (software)



clickmaker ©   (2013-05-18 21:20) [20]

> programmers loudest brand "copyrast".

not "copyrights", but "copy-paste")



Алканавт расправил плечи   (2013-05-18 21:23) [21]


> RDen © (18.05.13 21: 14) [16]
Virtualka? VPN?


> Eraser © (18.05.13 21: 17) [17]
The programmer often sits on a salary and it is very violent to him whether the program will be sold and what percentage will be stolen.



Пит   (2013-05-18 21:23) [22]

TUser, in your words one thing is clear - you want to set the price of the goods you buy, and this is the whole philosophy. You come to the market:

- How much do you have potatoes? 100 rubles per kilogram? Not expensive, here’s 10 rubles for you, or I’ll go from my collective farm, I know better how much potatoes cost. Yes, I heard that there is another potato, I even know the people who eat it, but I like your potato, especially 90% of people eat it. But I’m buying it from you for 10 rubles, like that.

Great approach. Only things should be called by their proper names - this is theft. Simple and ordinary theft, which is now not punished. And all these excuses "yes, I would buy for a price 10 times less", "yes, if I had a salary, yes ..." - just a reassurance of my own conscience.

If in the same way you would be completely sure that there would be no punishment for stealing a car, you would steal a car. The only question is what are you afraid of - are you afraid that you will be imprisoned, are afraid to get Lyuli from the owner of the car, and so on. But the approach is the same and you chose it. And an excuse for conscience - it will always be found, absolutely always, in any situation, so the human psyche is arranged, he cannot feel guilty, otherwise he will be uncomfortable, therefore he will always come up with something from the series “What am I, they are the first”, “Yes, I’m something, the others are out,” “Conspiracies of the world government,” whatever



Алканавт расправил плечи   (2013-05-18 21:32) [23]


> Pete (18.05.13 21: 23) [22]
Not a vegan, an hour? The argument is very familiar.



RDen ©   (2013-05-18 21:34) [24]


> Alkanaut squared his shoulders (18.05.13/21/23 21:XNUMX) [XNUMX]
>
>
>> RDen © (18.05.13/21/14 16:XNUMX) [XNUMX]
> Virtual? VPN?


Well, maybe ... but it’s easier to take a proven (broken and with known bugs) installation ..



Алканавт расправил плечи   (2013-05-18 21:40) [25]


> RDen © (18.05.13 21: 34) [24]
:-) then it is not too clear why there was still one copy to buy. would put on a laptop, if you really want to observe innocence and acquire capital



RDen ©   (2013-05-18 21:52) [26]


> Alkanaut squared his shoulders (18.05.13/21/40 25:XNUMX) [XNUMX]


There is no innocence for a long time ..)

Yes, bought for legality, because state the service is not a lower level, but I’m not going to drag a laptop ...



Внук ©   (2013-05-18 21:54) [27]

>> Pete (18.05.13/21/23 22:XNUMX p.m.) [XNUMX]
Maybe it is, of course, and so. But now I didn’t have a single pirated program in my car, as soon as my income allowed me to do this, not earlier.
This is to topikstarter. Apparently, it’s not brainwashed, but the standard of living has changed.



robt2   (2013-05-18 21:59) [28]

I personally think that software, any of the most sophisticated type of auto cad, can not be more expensive than the OS on which it works, and the rest is proportionally cheaper
then piracy will disappear completely



Styx   (2013-05-18 22:02) [29]


> Pete (18.05.13 21: 23) [22]
> Great approach.

In principle, a normal approach. This is exactly the case when the state should work - to come to a certain agreement with the supplier, so that both the buyer and the manufacturer are satisfied. Otherwise, why is it needed at all? If such regulation is not introduced for suppliers, then it is not necessary to introduce it for buyers - they also have the right to buy what they want, how much they want, including broken software, etc.



TUser ©   (2013-05-18 22:02) [30]

Pete (18.05.13 21: 23) [22]
TUser, in your words one thing is clear - you want to set the price of the goods you buy, and this is the whole philosophy. You come to the market:
- How much do you have potatoes?


Stop. Potatoes are sold in a market where competition, rather than monopoly, operates. There are different laws. So the analogy is incorrect.

Whether you like it or not, MS, Intel and others like them are monopolists. Like RAO UES or Gazprom. Why are tariffs for services of such natural monopolies as RAO and Gazprom regulated (good or bad - another question), but MS and Intel are not?

PS. For reference: the words "competition", "monopoly" and "natural monopoly" are economic terms, and here they are used in their strict economic meaning. Namely

1. A completely competitive market - a market model in which all manufacturers and all consumers occupy a small share of the market, all manufacturers and all consumers have equal access to each other's products, and the products are uniform in their properties (does not differ from different manufacturers).

2. Monopoly is a market model in which one of the producers (or several, then called cartel conspiracy) occupies a large or large part of the market, which allows them to dictate prices. An example of a monopolist - the OPEC cartel in the 70s - 56% of the market, and not 100% at all, as you might naively think. They dictated prices quite effectively.

3. Natural monopoly is a monopoly that arises in an industry in which the production of large quantities of goods at one enterprise is cheaper than the production of the same quantity of goods by many small producers (as in the model of perfect competition). An example is the Moscow metro, since it is obvious that digging a lot of tunnels instead of one is expensive and difficult (if at all possible). Therefore, the manufacturer is one. It `s naturally.

But economists are aware that the monopolist (even if it is natural) is prone to overstate the price of products. Therefore, for natural monopolies, price regulation has been invented. In order not to greyhounds.

MS and Intel are the same natural monopolies as the subway. it is impossible to explain why this should not concern them.



robt2   (2013-05-18 22:04) [31]


> how subway

wow mega coolest comparison, remember



Внук ©   (2013-05-18 22:06) [32]

LOL.
Software costs exactly as much as those who make money on it can buy. That is, if by purchasing Delphi, the average programmer is able to earn from $ 1000 per month, then Delphi will never cost 5 rubles, even if the OS will cost 10 rubles (although it is here at all). But for how much software "non-commercial users" can buy, nobody cares when deciding the price; for them there are OpenSource, Starter Editions, Home Editions, Academic License, etc.



Алканавт расправил плечи   (2013-05-18 22:08) [33]


> personally, I think that software, any, the most sophisticated type of auto cad,
> can not be more expensive than the OS on which it works,
That is, there can’t be paid software on a free OS? A version of the software that was built under Windows should cost ten bucks, and a version built under Linux - for free? Beautiful!


> then piracy will disappear completely
Yeah. Immediately as they stop stealing the OS.

Threat. For the most part I agree with [7].



robt2   (2013-05-18 22:31) [34]


> Grandson © (18.05.13 22: 06) [32]

there is one problem, without the OS, no software works, is it logical?
and who earns how much and on what does not matter, if I can steal a million bucks with a gun this does not mean that it should / will cost more ...
in addition, selling one copy of the software for 10 tons of bucks, which accounts for a thousand pirated copies, is not more profitable than selling, and the same thousand copies for 100 bucks
learn to count gentlemen ...

> and Linux

But there is a lot of paid software in Linux that generally needs someone and has no analogues in Windows or Makos?



robt2   (2013-05-18 22:33) [35]


> Immediately how to stop stealing OSes

Now all computers are sold with Windows preinstalled



Алканавт расправил плечи   (2013-05-18 22:34) [36]

What does the analogue have to do with it? Here is an example: is under Windows and under Linux. I correctly understand that under Linux it should be distributed for nothing?



TUser ©   (2013-05-18 22:34) [37]

The software costs exactly as much as those who can buy it who makes money on it.

This is the key - who makes money on it. I write this - it should be paid for commercial use. For non-commercial use, basic software must be free, as it is. If I use Windows to write posts on DM (honestly, I don’t pay a damn for that!), Then I obviously do not enter this category. Moreover, if I really forbid me to use Windows other than for a few kilotugriks (I have legal from the employer on stationary computers, that is, I did not pay for them), I will spit and install Linux. That is, I will not pay these kilotugrics, because I do not see the point. That is, there are no losses from me and people like me, even if I put a pirate.

PS. When buying a laptop, I discussed the issue of buying it without Windows. Can. It will be 300 p. sincerely (7 starter), this is the price at which MS is quite ready to sell Windows. And many would have bought.



Алканавт расправил плечи   (2013-05-18 22:35) [38]


> now all computers are sold with Windows preinstalled
you shooo ... but I didn’t have a self-assembly :-( and bought a laptop with friedos :-(



Алканавт расправил плечи   (2013-05-18 22:37) [39]


> For non-commercial use, basic software must be
> free as it is in fact
Here it is very debatable what to attribute to the base, as for me.



robt2   (2013-05-18 22:42) [40]


> and bought a laptop with friedos :-(

the last time I saw these on sale in 2007 ... you fell behind bro

> what under Linux it should be distributed for nothing?

Linux is not free for those who really need Oracle :)



Styx   (2013-05-18 22:45) [41]


> Here it is very controversial what to attribute to the base, as for me.

Any person accounts use due to life circumstances.



Алканавт расправил плечи   (2013-05-18 22:47) [42]


> the last time I saw these on sale in 2007
I don’t know, I bought in 2009. And now in the store half of the laptops shines with Windows, and the second half - with bare bios.

I won’t tell you for the whole of Odessa, but here http://hotline.ua/computer/noutbuki-netbuki/4101-27788/ offer 967 laptop models without Windows.


> Linux is not free for those who really need :)
Linux, they are different ...



alexdn ©   (2013-05-18 22:49) [43]

> Styx (18.05.13 22: 45) [41]
> Anyone who has to man
Well, yes, still make free travel in public transport and give out loaves for free.



Пит   (2013-05-18 22:49) [44]


> Maybe it is, of course, and so. But now I have no more
> car no pirated program as soon as my income
> I was allowed to, not earlier.

Grandson, absolutely true, but where is the contradiction to my words? You are talking about the real fact when the software purchase occurred.

I am talking about attitude. No money to buy - ok, that’s understandable. If you don’t have money to pay, but you really want to possess, you can steal and there’s nothing for it - most people steal. Well, that’s how it goes.
I mean, you need to be honest and call it theft, and not pretend to be a quixote and say that my conscience is clear, they are simply to blame, they are bullied prices, and I can’t use their product. Well, nonsense.

In continuation of the topic, by the way, it delivers how everyone scolds officials who supposedly plundered their homeland, kickbacks and so on. Are these officials any different? By your own example, you can make sure that the vast majority of people, if they can take something, even if illegally with confidence, then there will be no punishment - they take it. What's the Difference? A bit oftop, but, IMHO, the roots are the same. It's just that when your body is one morality, and when oil grandmothers are stealing here - ah ah, what bad ones. And there is exactly the same logic - and why not take it, if you can take it, because you really want to. And the justifications for conscience will be exactly the same - damn it, but I’m not that I’m stealing, I just compensate for the unpaid genius and blah blah blah. You can turn it out as you like.



Алканавт расправил плечи   (2013-05-18 22:51) [45]


> Styx (18.05.13 22: 45) [41]
Well here, how ... do I have to use a computer? no, you can plant potatoes, eat it. therefore, the computer and programs on it are optional, therefore, all paid. on the other hand, I got a job as a development engineer of the first category, and my bosses nightmare "write a program, sanafbich, otherwise we'll fire him." total me accounts use dlfa. that means it should be free, right?

controversial is everything, oh controversial.



Внук ©   (2013-05-18 22:52) [46]

>> TUser © (18.05.13 22: 34) [37]
Well, I'm about the same. If the use is non-commercial, I don’t see the difference, use a pirate or put a frivolous analogue.
>> robt2 (18.05.13/22/31 34:XNUMX) [XNUMX]
I can’t decide what final idea you want to convey:
1. Microsoft is not aware of the volume of piracy
2. Microsoft and other companies are so stupid marketers that any visitor delphimaster is ready to give them a head start.

PS At the forums of motorists, the same discussions are traditional on the topic "SomeAuto brand car would be the very thing if it cost half as much as it costs" :)



Styx   (2013-05-18 22:53) [47]


> alexdn © (18.05.13 22: 49) [43]
> Well, yes, still make free travel in public transport
> and give out loaves for free.

Well, the prices of both are regulated by the state.
It is clear that the ideal is unattainable, but ..



clickmaker ©   (2013-05-18 22:54) [48]

> I have to use delfa. so she must be
> free, right?

so at work it is already free for you. I have not yet met offices where they would be forced to come with their samovar



robt2   (2013-05-18 22:54) [49]


> Alkanaut squared his shoulders (18.05.13/22/47 42:XNUMX) [XNUMX]

what does Ukraine have to do with it?
who is very itchy, he will buy naked and download pirates, but most people don’t share nifig in computers and they don’t need a naked BIOS from the store :)

> Linux, they are different ...

nowhere, give?
what in our organizations began to put on ubuntu instead of redhat? And count, Oracle already released the Linux, so to speak ready "from a box"



Алканавт расправил плечи   (2013-05-18 22:59) [50]


> clickmaker © (18.05.13 22: 54) [48]
sat :-)


> what does Ukraine have to do with it?
what about roissy?



Пит   (2013-05-18 23:03) [51]


> In principle, a normal approach. This is exactly the case when
> the state should work-come to a certain agreement
> with a supplier, so that both the buyer and the manufacturer

I mean, are you talking about the need to introduce state regulation on software? And why on him? Why not cars? Not on iPhones?

If you are generally talking about the type of economy, when prices are regulated by the state, then this is a completely different type of economy, with its pluses and minuses. We have a type of market. I just made a product - and MY TOTAL RIGHT to sell for as much as I want. And your full right to buy it or not.
Why can't MS do this ?! This is a damn market, like twice two. All antitrust committees have claims only that global companies impose their services, implicitly including other products in their products, this is a separate song. But if I made a product - I set the prices myself, it is ME's up to me to decide how much I have invested, which price is more adequate and acceptable.


> MS and Intel are the same natural monopolies as the subway

Do you understand what you wrote? What pancake are they natural?
These are companies that have not been given any privileges and are not present now. They operate in a competitive environment, they do not have any kind of deposit for which the state gave them a license and thereby gave carte blanche. They also hire employees, pay them salaries, try to be profitable. They go broke, get rich - this is a business. Absolutely market business.

You have the logic of a standard consumer, but not a manufacturer. Some company made such a good product that everyone began to use it. And because of this, you think that someone now has the right to tell them how much they should sell their product for.

Here Apple has released a hyper-popular smartphone - also, apparently, they need to impose a price on this device, and not so that they determine?

You have a bunch of free OSs, but you say no, I want windows, I like windows. But I don’t want to pay for her, dear she. Although better than free linux. HERE do not understand this logic to me ever.



robt2   (2013-05-18 23:04) [52]


> Grandson © (18.05.13 22: 52) [46]

the idea is that in order to develop and sell software, you need a dozen computers 15 people and the Internet
and in order to do something tangible, which often costs much less than some software, billions of dollars of investments are needed, build a plant, arrange supplies of materials, ship goods, thousands of workers, etc., etc.



Внук ©   (2013-05-18 23:05) [53]

In general, of course, empty talk. The cost of software (in most cases) is approximately equal to the cost of iron (the rest is provided by the employer). And who is able to buy one computer, he can buy two, that is, pay for software. Another thing is that now it is almost not punished for it, hence the mess, when every student considers it humiliating to put versions below Ultimate and Architect :)



robt2   (2013-05-18 23:08) [54]


> Alkanaut squared his shoulders (18.05.13/22/59 50:XNUMX) [XNUMX]

Well, I’m not telling you that in America you can go and buy a machine, the same with laptops, you have some laws / customs, we have different ones, and in America there are third



robt2   (2013-05-18 23:09) [55]


> Another thing is that almost no one is being punished for it now

are you from ukraine too



Внук ©   (2013-05-18 23:10) [56]

>> robt2 (18.05.13/23/09 55:XNUMX) [XNUMX]
Click on the icon, there is a profile :)



Пит   (2013-05-18 23:11) [57]

absolutely right. In our country we have the concept of vital goods. Vital medicine. And in principle, the concepts are probably correct.

But how is price regulation achieved? The state simply subsidizes manufacturers, limits the margin of sellers to such categories of goods, and reduces taxes (VAT, for example).

If now TUser wants to push that the operating system is a vital commodity, then this is for chickens to laugh. If we only talk about breaking without VK contact and flood on the Internet.

If this is your job, then there’s nothing to talk about.

The grandson is absolutely right. The logic is simple - you can steal in this segment with impunity. That is why they steal. One could ALSO steal cars with impunity - they would steal. And the apartments would be stolen, with even greater pleasure, if there was an opportunity.

This is no different from logic - I won’t pay for a DVD with this movie, I’d better download it in torrent and watch it, because the movie is complete crap. That would be a masterpiece - I could have paid, and so - figurines! Nahalyavu look.



Styx   (2013-05-18 23:14) [58]


> And why on him?

Well, TUser kind of lucidly explained that fooling around.

> I've produced a product, and MY FULL RIGHT to sell for
> as much as I want.

This is also true. And my right as a user to copy it for free. If the manufacturer wants to be helped in the fight against piracy, it’s logical to agree to price controls. Or a wild market - those who have managed to eat it.



Внук ©   (2013-05-18 23:18) [59]

>> Pete (18.05.13/23/11 57:XNUMX p.m.) [XNUMX]
With movies, etc. I have this position: if I consider it necessary to pay the creators (for various reasons), I buy a CD (movie ticket, etc.). If not, I'm waiting for it to be shown on public TV, after which I consider myself entitled to watch (but not sell copies) this film in any way (including via torrent). And who the hell will convince me that this is piracy. And Mikhalkov with his tax is simply obliged to go on foot erotic journey. But not coming :)



robt2   (2013-05-18 23:19) [60]


> Grandson © (18.05.13 23: 10) [56]

about packs fellow countryman :)
and you will tell me that in Samara they are not punished for a pirate?
even if there was a precedent that they went to apartments on a domra tip and seized computers, I’m silent about the offices that deal with everything related to advertising / printing and other "graphics"



Внук ©   (2013-05-18 23:21) [61]

Legal entities are punished, it is easy and profitable. Physicists are not interested in anyone, only as an indicative flogging.



Игорь Шевченко ©   (2013-05-18 23:21) [62]

Pete

I agree completely and completely



Kerk ©   (2013-05-18 23:23) [63]

The market is gradually settling. People’s incomes are growing, software is getting cheaper, the need to come up with excuses for piracy is lost. Games, for example, are now much easier to buy. As I recall, in Samara I went uphill in winter for sidyuks to the book market for another 5km in the winter or later on the torrents rummaged around in search of a working version ... brrr. It’s much easier to give the cost of a movie ticket or two and you get the right game in a couple of clicks.

What I noticed is a change in attitude towards software consumption. The years of piracy have taught to use all the best and the freshest, even if it is not necessary. When you pay, you suddenly realize that one software and the year before last are satisfied, and the other is completely unnecessary.

On a home computer, free software is all except Windows, office and toys.



alexdn ©   (2013-05-18 23:26) [64]

> Pete (18.05.13 23: 11) [57]
> because the film is full of crap. That would be a masterpiece - I
> we could and paid, and so-figushki!
I’ve recently had a chance to communicate a lot with foreigners .. And what I noticed is that of course they have a better standard of living, at least 10-20 percent, and naturally this affects their worldview. Including what foods they eat and for what and how much they are willing to pay. Those. our worldview is determined by necessity, they are a little more free ..



robt2   (2013-05-18 23:28) [65]


> Kerk © (18.05.13 23: 23) [63]

you have Peter in the profile, why did you leave us :(
By the way, I stood on the book :) and they accepted me with 1Som :(



TUser ©   (2013-05-18 23:49) [66]

Well, I'm about the same. If the use is non-commercial, I don’t see the difference, use a pirate or put a frivolous analogue.
I do not see any benefit to MSU to prohibit free use of Windows at home. I see a profit - they plant it on their system. No profit.

I just made a product - and MY TOTAL RIGHT to sell for as much as I want. And your full right to buy it or not.
Why can't MS do this ?! This is a damn market, like twice two. All antitrust committees have claims only that global companies impose their services, implicitly including other products in their products, this is a separate song. But if I made a product - I set the prices myself, it is ME's up to me to decide how much I have invested, which price is more adequate and acceptable.


Once again, look at the natural monopolies that I wrote. The prices for their services are for some reason regulated by the state, even - it’s scary to think - like liberal America. Because it is believed that the market is beautiful when there is free competition. And when it does not exist and cannot exist, it is not beautiful, which is proved in elementary economic models.

Do you understand what you wrote? What pancake are they natural?

I (foreseeing a false interpretation) wrote a clear definition of the term "natural monopoly". MS is completely suitable for it, since enlargement leads to savings on testing, implementation, and so on.

If now TUser wants to push that the operating system is a vital commodity, then this is for chickens to laugh.

Well, people also lived in caves, but today without tyrneta (and it requires an OS) - in Moscow, for example, you are unlikely to survive. Well, if not a homeless person or a very deep pensioner, of course.

Kerk © (18.05.13 23: 23) [63]

I don’t know about games, Windows is often pre-installed now. Stupidly - really imposed. What office people are massively setting up right now - I'm not in the know. And Windows includes a lot now compared to 10 years ago. For the kin, for example, you do not need CyberLink, which I once installed, Media Player can cope. They simply scored everything on antivirus, it seems they just buy unlimited tyrnet and an additional kernel for these viruses. What else - all sorts of Skype are free, mail - via the web. Photoshop, it seems, is being massively set up as a pirate, since Adobe just recently put up a pirate on its website. That is, migration in the direction of legal software on home computers, in my opinion, is there, but this is not due to the fact that people have seen their sight en masse and began to buy licenses. Manufacturers began to do more for free (no need to break The Bat - there is gmail), as well as impose something (a laptop with a pre-installed ...). That's the point, IMHO.

Regarding the habit over the years of piracy - yes, there is one.



robt2   (2013-05-19 00:01) [67]


> the benefit of Adobe pirated just recently put on his site

yes really?
By the way, the next version of all of them will work only on the Internet in the "cloud", by subscribing to a couple of hundred bucks a month, so there will be no freebies

> Windows is often pre-installed now. Stupidly - imposed
> actually

come on? well, I have a version of Linux that will be installed on any hardware configuration "from the box" and will work with all the hardware without shamanism

> Grandson © (18.05.13 23: 21) [61]

So the lawyers and not the physicists benefit from the software :)
so we can say that everything is under control, and the lawyers have been trained perfectly for 7 years



Пит   (2013-05-19 00:04) [68]


> I.e. our worldview is determined by necessity, they
> a little more free ..

yes, but I just urge things to spell.

Because if you stole, then you stole. Yes, you stole, because you know that they will not be punished for this. But you don’t have to pretend that you didn’t steal anything, but this is your answer to world capitalism, which is an unreasonably high price. After all, the obvious psychological trick is to steal, but not feel guilty.


> I see no benefit to MSU to ban free use
> Windows at home.

and here we smoothly approached another magical thing. You, of course, know better how MS is better to sell Windows. After all, you are a professional in this matter and ate a dog on it. And based on the fact that you do not agree with their sales policy - you consider that you have the right to steal their product.

Well, aren't you funny yourself? After all, the trend is obvious - to invent anything, if only not to give money.

PS By the way, I think that gasoline for private cars should be free! For freight carriers there, for those who make money on transport, let it be paid. But for home use, gasoline should be free, let the state intervene! Otherwise, I consider myself entitled to steal it from the fuel station, since my father-in-law works for me there.



Алканавт расправил плечи   (2013-05-19 00:14) [69]


> invent anything if only not to give money
Yes, you don’t have to invent anything ... I act as it is more convenient to ME. It’s more convenient to buy - I’m buying. It’s more convenient to download - I’m downloading. And I don’t give a damn what the manufacturer thinks from the high bell tower, I have never been bothered by his problems ... As soon as the manufacturer makes it more convenient than a pirate, I will buy it right away. And I’m buying something.



clickmaker ©   (2013-05-19 00:18) [70]

in fact, even when you just download, you already pay. For the Internet, for electricity, for the depreciation of the computer, finally ...



Kerk ©   (2013-05-19 00:34) [71]

Photoshop is a good example. Photoshop for home use is like a milling machine for home use.



Kerk ©   (2013-05-19 00:41) [72]

In general, talking about home users and monopolists is sheer crafty. Indeed, the fact that a certain Vasily Pupkin processes vacation pictures in Turkey using one hundredth of a percent of the functionality of a pirated Photoshop, Adobe will not be impoverished. An impoverished person who sells a utility for 20 bucks that performs exactly three functions that Vasily needs. But compromises are alien to Vasily, he needs only the best.



clickmaker ©   (2013-05-19 00:56) [73]

> home milling machine

Well, maybe someone prefers to work "alone with the mill." Freelancer such



asail ©   (2013-05-19 00:58) [74]


> Kerk © (19.05.13 00: 41) [72]

Exactly!

I will add. Piracy is theft, no matter how you look at it. And you need to fight it. But, not with private users, but with those who hack and expose (distribute) software. This is much more effective, IMHO.

I do not agree with Tuzer. If there is such a vital need for software - it is solved by free software. Yes, uncomfortable. Yes, hemorrhoids. But you have to pay for convenience ...

Z.Y. I’m stealing myself, yes ...



clickmaker ©   (2013-05-19 01:00) [75]

Deleted by moderator



Дмитрий С ©   (2013-05-19 01:46) [76]

Deleted by moderator



clickmaker ©   (2013-05-19 01:56) [77]

Deleted by moderator



Eraser ©   (2013-05-19 02:24) [78]


> Kerk © (19.05.13 00: 41) [72]

because everything goes to the fact that more and more software is made free for home use.
Abobe does not give away keys to home users for free solely because they are monopolists. The connection is not direct, but it is. Where tough competition has long been filled with free versions, as it is a powerful weapon against competitors.



Плохиш ©   (2013-05-19 02:52) [79]


> Abobe does not give keys to home users for free exclusively
> due to the fact that they are monopolists

There is no need to lie, there is a wagon and a huge cart of free alternatives for the house.

PS. And the branch is cool, but not interesting, not one new thought, and the same ones slander one topic from year to year.



Дмитрий С ©   (2013-05-19 02:54) [80]

Deleted by moderator



asail ©   (2013-05-19 02:54) [81]


> Eraser © (19.05.13 02: 24) [78]

> Abobe does not give keys to home users for free exclusively
> due to the fact that they are monopolists

Adobe is not only Photoshop. For example, there is also Premiere. And then they have a competitor car and trolley. But for some reason there are no free versions ... monopolists are not the point.



Германн ©   (2013-05-19 03:27) [82]


> slander one topic from year to year.

In the end, everyone comes to the idea that you still need to buy a full-fledged product. This is generally cheaper. Someone understood this today, someone yesterday, someone will understand tomorrow.
PS
But let the employer still buy Delphi! :)



Пит   (2013-05-19 03:40) [83]


> The one who sells for 20 bucks a utility that performs
> exactly three functions necessary for Vasily. But Vasily compromises
> foreign, he needs only the best.

yes, good point. Well, if you don’t go into details, there are now free alternatives for processing photos, well, let's say the instagram is the same for most people, but yes. I agree, monopolists are overpricing, let me be my own, and by doing so I will pass by other niche products, much cheaper products.


> Abobe does not give keys to home users for free exclusively
> due to the fact that they are monopolists

Are you talking about Flash?)

Do not consider yourself smarter than others. Vendors are well aware of the orientation of the product and who it is intended for. What is profitable - they distribute, what is profitable - they sell. The manufacturer's business is to offer. It is up to the buyer, user to agree.


> Everyone steals if they can, but at the same time they condemn those who
> steals :)

there is subtlety. It is foolish to condemn a person who does exactly the same as you. But the question is in relation. Theft - it is theft, but it causes a smile when a person steals and at the same time proves that he is doing the right thing, because he knows better than the manufacturer how to distribute this product.
A special smile is caused when such a speech is made by a programmer who is very knowledgeable about the inner kitchen and the difficulties of producing a software product.



Германн ©   (2013-05-19 03:44) [84]


> All in the end come to the conclusion that we should still buy
> full product.

At least in order to have the full right to contact technical support of the product. And do not tell me that technical support calls require only "bad" products. Somehow, practice shows that almost any software may require such calls.



NoUser ©   (2013-05-19 03:47) [85]

Fee for software: if there is such an option - I give the equivalent amount to the most needy relatives.

That's why here
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AF%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%BE_Linux#.D0.9E.D1.86.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BA.D0.B0_.D1.81.D1.82.D0.BE.D0.B8.D0.BC.D0. BE.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B8_.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B7.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B1.D0.BE.D1.82.D0.BA.D0.B 8_.D1.81_.D0.BD.D1.83.D0.BB.D1.8F
and here
http://uinc.ru/news/sn19873.html

function LinuxPrice (LinuxId): $ billion virtual;

What do you think?



Германн ©   (2013-05-19 03:54) [86]


> Well, if you do not go into details, which is purely in processing
> pictures now there are free alternatives

And who knows about them? Who will help them find and choose the most suitable for this case / user?



Дмитрий С ©   (2013-05-19 04:50) [87]


> At least in order to have the full right to contact
> product support. And do not tell me that treatment
> only bad products require technical support. Somehow
> here practice shows that almost any software can
> require such appeals.

He appealed twice in support in life: the first time to Samsung, regarding the fact that there are no Russian letters on the dialer - the answer was in the spirit of "do not want this." the second time in MS about sorting files and folders in Explorer (Windows, of course, involuntarily honestly purchased) - the result is zero. These two questions really interested me. And I think so with all the major software manufacturers. So the availability of support is not the reason. And besides, the Internet already has answers to almost all questions.


> lupo condemn a person who does exactly the same as you.
> But the question is in relation. Theft - it is theft, but a smile
> causes when a person steals and at the same time proves that
> he does it right, because he knows better than the manufacturer
> how to distribute this product.
> A special smile is caused when such speeches are made
> a programmer who is very knowledgeable about internal
> kitchen and software production difficulties.

But I wonder if you have the moral right to steal if you yourself have become a victim of theft.



Дмитрий С ©   (2013-05-19 04:56) [88]


> http://uinc.ru/news/sn19873.html
>
> function LinuxPrice (LinuxId): $ billion virtual;

It's amazing how it turned out that Debian is 18 times more expensive than the Linux kernel.



Eraser ©   (2013-05-19 04:59) [89]


> Bad © (19.05.13 02: 52) [79]

Yes, where does the free alternative? I'm talking about the market, not the alternatives. Photoshop has no competitor at all, Illustrator has a non-competitor corel. + There are a number of products that have no sane competitors.

if the market for raster graphic editors were divided approximately equally between at least two products, I would give a 100% guarantee that the licensing policy would be much more liberal and the prices would be much lower.

Now they have no reason to educate the younger generation of users, they themselves are educated. If you want to professionally handle photo processing and be in demand on the labor market - only photoshop. there would be a competitor - there would be a choice, one and the other would run in. look at samsung with apple.



TUser ©   (2013-05-19 08:43) [90]

yes really?

Yes, some of the latest versions (like CS2) hung on their site. Technically - download and install. Legally - this is only possible for those who have a license. Maybe now it’s hanging.



TUser ©   (2013-05-19 08:52) [91]

well, I have a version of Linux that will be installed on any hardware configuration "from the box" and will work with all the hardware without shamanism

not in this universe

An impoverished person who sells for 20 bucks a utility that performs exactly the three functions that Basil needs. But compromises are alien to Vasily, he needs only the best.

This is not a pity, let it get poorer. Because free products with these three functions are a wagon.

----

Regarding support. StatSoft has been brainwashing me for more than a month now. Well, not every day, so when I have time to communicate with them. And everything is bought legally. Somewhere for $ 1k. And it doesn’t work. Something there does not grow together with the license. And it works for pirates.



wl ©   (2013-05-19 09:31) [92]

I recalled one absolute monopolist in the market: IDA Pro, to buy their product, they need to prove that your company really needs a reversal of applications, an anti-virus writes or something



Игорь Шевченко ©   (2013-05-19 09:34) [93]

Crying pussy in the hallway
She has great sorrow -
Evil people poor pussy
Do not let the sausages steal.



Inovet ©   (2013-05-19 09:36) [94]

Deleted by moderator



wl ©   (2013-05-19 09:42) [95]

why is visual Studio for windows paid, well, except for the helpless Exrpess of course, and Xcode for the poppy is free? and there and there are thousands of hours of work of programmers, testers and other brethren



wl ©   (2013-05-19 09:52) [96]

although I'm lying! old versions of visual studio can be absolutely legally obtained for free



robt2   (2013-05-19 10:20) [97]

I’m ready to pay only for a lifetime software license, and not every 10t, for the fact that the software has become compatible with the new Windows or added a couple of functions



Inovet ©   (2013-05-19 10:25) [98]

> [97] robt2 (19.05.13 10: 20)

So no one forces you to pay, use the old version. Question: And is such software ready for development with a one-time payment and lifelong free compatibility with the new Windows and the addition of new features?



robt2   (2013-05-19 10:50) [99]


> Inovet © (19.05.13 10: 25) [98]

but how can I use the old one that does not work on the new Windows, which is needed to work with new hardware, banal x64?
am i ready why not? I have already cited the numbers above, which is more profitable, piracy or low price



wl ©   (2013-05-19 10:55) [100]

Stop! it seemed to me that the MS is very concerned about backward compatibility (unlike some), and the program compiled under the tenth studio will quite work for the eight, which by the way will not very soon become mainstream in Russian offices



robt2   (2013-05-19 10:57) [101]

after, the new versions can also be interpreted as closing old bugs and increasing stability, and even more so you can’t pay for it



robt2   (2013-05-19 11:06) [102]


> wl © (19.05.13 10: 55) [100]

it’s baked, and software writers bake much more, in anticipation of the release of new Windows, a month before the release they start dumping their “Windows XXX compatible” versions on sale
because, as I already said, most PC users are shamelessly stupid and if they see such metamorphoses they are sure that this is all for the sake of caring for them
even on this forum, there are characters still confident that D7 is unable to work on win7 !!!



robt2   (2013-05-19 11:13) [103]


> wl © (19.05.13 10: 55) [100]

and so you do not dig much I will tell
that some software also uses firewood, which are really incompatible or non-plow due to the lack of a signature that was previously unnecessary
+ transition to UAC which nevertheless cannot be disconnected
+ with whists, the audio subsystem is completely changed, which naturally affects the acc. software
+ the same fashion went on a finger, and some "old men" from this in shock
+ xs what will happen next



Плохиш ©   (2013-05-19 11:14) [104]


> Eraser © (19.05.13 04: 59) [89]
>
Quoted19.05.13>> Bad © (02/52/79 XNUMX:XNUMX) [XNUMX]
>
> Yes, where does the free alternative? I'm talking about the market, not
> alternatives. Photoshop has no competitor at all,

And what about then? Debility slaves make excuses for theft, sucking reasons from the finger?



Плохиш ©   (2013-05-19 11:16) [105]


> wl © (19.05.13 09: 42) [95]
> why visual Studio for windows is paid, well, except for helpless
> Exrpess of course

With what version did she become "helpless"?



Inovet ©   (2013-05-19 11:17) [106]

> [99] robt2 (19.05.13 10: 50)
> old which does not work on the new Windows

This or crooked software or highly specialized.



Inovet ©   (2013-05-19 11:20) [107]

> [99] robt2 (19.05.13 10: 50)
> I'm ready, why not?

So you're one of those few who can provide income from their software in other ways.



robt2   (2013-05-19 11:22) [108]


> photoshop has no competitor at all, illustrator has a non-competitor corel

in fact, the competitor IMMEDIATELY photoshop + illustrator + design at the same time costs around 15t rubles, and is used in 80% of all printing houses and design studios + often comes bundled with printing equipment
I’m telling you as a specialist who has worked for 8 years in this area.



robt2   (2013-05-19 11:26) [109]


> Inovet © (19.05.13 11: 17) [106]

yes, maybe crooked, then all the more so why should I pay every time for straightening someone’s hands ?? I do not need a discount for an upgrade, I need a new working version, for free



wl ©   (2013-05-19 11:45) [110]

and Gimp is not a competitor to Photoshop? I'm just far from design, so not in the know



Anatoly Podgoretsky ©   (2013-05-19 12:28) [111]


quotedXNUMX>> Linux is not free for those who really need Oracle:
>) Linux, they are different ...

On free Linux RH earned about 10 kilobaxes per copy. They know how to sell for free.



vuk ©   (2013-05-19 12:33) [112]

to robt2 (19.05.13/00/01 67:XNUMX) [XNUMX]:

> by the way, the next version of all of them will only work
> on an Internet in the "cloud", by subscribing to a couple of hundred bucks a month,
> so there will be no freebies

And here, by the way, yes. Here, as it were, not quite in the cloud. The cloud there so far is needed only so that the user could not work without a subscription. The software will still stand locally. And then on the Internet a strong buch on this topic arose. Moreover, but not from users of pirates, but from those who honestly bought everything. It’s just this. Adobe wants money, and wants it all the time, and many even legal users do not want to upgrade to new versions, well, they have enough of the functional that is. Subscription is a means of constantly collecting loot, do you need a new version or not, but pay. No pens - no cartoons.



Anatoly Podgoretsky ©   (2013-05-19 12:34) [113]

Deleted by moderator



asail ©   (2013-05-19 16:07) [114]


> robt2 (19.05.13/11/26 109:XNUMX) [XNUMX]

> I need a new working version, for free

Nifigase !!!
Why do you need a new one? Well, you bought the old one, the functionality in it suits. Use it. Oh yes - 64 bit suddenly I wanted ... So this is another functionality. So - pay! Why should Adobe give out CS 5 for free to everyone who buys CS 2? They have a difference in functionality - Mama Do not Cry, and a lot of man-years were threatened to develop it.



wl ©   (2013-05-19 16:36) [115]


> asail © (19.05.13 16: 07) [114]

Apple did not ask for money after switching from PPC to Intel



Плохиш ©   (2013-05-19 16:47) [116]


> wl © (19.05.13 16: 36) [115]
quoted19.05.13>> asail © (16/07/114 XNUMX:XNUMX) [XNUMX] Apple did not ask for money after
> transition from PPC to Intel

Can I link to how Apple changed free old Apple (motorolla) to new (Intel)?



asail ©   (2013-05-19 18:15) [117]


> wl © (19.05.13 16: 36) [115]

I don’t know what Apple asked there and what didn’t ... It doesn’t matter. It is important that the fact of free distribution of something to someone does not give the right to demand free of charge from the others. For all sorts of promotions there, caused by certain marketing considerations (sometimes erroneous), I completely admit free (or almost free) distribution of software. But, some here require OBLIGATING the manufacturer to crush their software for free. It’s ridiculous.



Inovet ©   (2013-05-19 18:30) [118]

> [117] asail © (19.05.13 18: 15)
> OBLIGATE the manufacturer to crush your software for free.

They will stop producing and that’s all. Right now they’ll say who and where would make them produce. But let's hope that such "geniuses" will no longer exist.



vuk ©   (2013-05-19 18:43) [119]

to asail © (19.05.13 16: 07) [114]:

> Well, you bought the old one, the functionality in it suits you. Use it.

In the new Adobe model, this feature is completely absent.



имя   (2013-05-19 19:25) [120]

Deleted by moderator



имя   (2013-05-19 19:32) [121]

Deleted by moderator



Kerk ©   (2013-05-19 19:32) [122]

Deleted by moderator



Kerk ©   (2013-05-19 19:37) [123]

Deleted by moderator



vuk ©   (2013-05-19 19:37) [124]

to Kerk © (19.05.13 19: 32) [122]:

> And what? Who will you sell this to? Pirated users
> photoshop?

Thanks to the efforts of Adobe, pirated users will soon remain. For "competing organizations" there is a real chance to rise, because Now, even among legitimate users, a search has begun for alternatives. There are few who wish to transfer to a subscription.



Inovet ©   (2013-05-19 19:40) [125]

> [124] vuk © (19.05.13 19: 37)
> Through the efforts of Adobe, pirated users will soon remain.

What are they doing there?



Пит   (2013-05-19 19:45) [126]


> You yourself are now not afraid of becoming one of these "not
> affected "999 analogues?

Yes, TUser has consumer tactics. He does not see beyond his own nose, it is beneficial for him as a consumer to get free then - he writes about this. It turns out that he understands the sales policy better than those who actually sell in millions.

It even means that he has no plans to do something of his own, to stand on the other side of the barricades, not on the side of the consumer, but on the side of the manufacturer. It doesn’t matter how this economic model works - you can think of it, we are smart and we know better how others need to be sold, but the main thing is that I don’t pay. This is stupidly greed and lack of finance in life.

On the one hand, MS is a monopolist; on the other hand, you cannot live without an operating system. On the third hand, full confidence that no one will pay them anyway (they will use other products, if that).

A complete breakdown of logic is evident.



vuk ©   (2013-05-19 19:53) [127]

I probably did not quite accurately put it. Only users of pirated versions will remain for older versions of software. Everything new is being transferred to subscriptions. Well, that is, if you want to use, you must constantly pay.

And yes, for many who are engaged in photography for a long time, adobe has come up with a way to force b [to buy new versions of photoshop and lightroom - at some point, support for new cameras is no longer added to the RAW converter of old versions, and a new version of the plugin is released, incompatible with previous versions of PS and LR.



TUser ©   (2013-05-19 20:23) [128]

Kerk © (19.05.13 19: 32) [122]

You explain to me - what profit from Pupkin? He chooses between two options

1. Pirate Photoshop. In this case, the adobe does not receive anything, except for advertising (if one day Pupkin works as a professional designer, he can also buy photoshop - by the way, I personally know one legal installation of photoshop from a user who is simply used to the pirated version).
2. One of 999 free analogues, in this case, adob again does not receive anything.

Pete

Sorry, I don’t understand the counterargument “well, I know better”. In this way, you can justify anything you want - well, there smart people sat and thought up, not a couple to us, mere mortals. This is said simply from the lack of arguments. Probably because the logic is not disordered.



TUser ©   (2013-05-19 20:27) [129]

Here, for example, why Delphi did not defeat all other development systems? There are two reasons for this, one of them is the long-term mistakes of marketers in pricing policy. Because competitors all the time was significantly cheaper. But that we will discuss them - smart people are sitting there, they know better.



robt2   (2013-05-19 20:30) [130]


> and Gimp is not a competitor to Photoshop?

a competitor until rnch comes to the printing industry because there is absolutely no direct work with CMYK of such programs in total five, and
someone can blurt out about "you can also convert the plugin" but this is complete nonsense

> With what fright Adobe should give out CS 5 for free
> all who bought CS 2? They have a difference in functionality - Mama Do not Cry

all the "new functionality" comes in the form of a constant change in the interface and adding commands that are based on years of scripts and techniques developed by users
all the same can be done in CS2 only by pressing 2-3 buttons instead of one
the same "red eyes" young "designers" without a clue how to remove if there is no button for this :)



asail ©   (2013-05-19 20:37) [131]


> TUser © (19.05.13 19: 25) [120]

> Vasily Pupkin put photoshop in order to crop pictures,
> no Adobe is poorer - no one was going to him
> pay. In a pinch, Vasily can take advantage
> one of 999 analogues. There is no injured.

To get it! Here, see the analogy:
I was planning to go home from work. I caught the bomb, sat down, drove off. Arrived, I get out of the car and am going to go to the porch ... But here comes the question from the driver: "Ale, where are the grandmas?"
I replied: “I won’t give it. Too expensive, but for free, Mona and ride. I still did not intend to pay you anything - incl. you are not impoverished. In a pinch, I would ride the bus".
The continuation of these arguments would be in intensive care, I think ... :)



TUser ©   (2013-05-19 20:45) [132]

No, the bomb has incurred variable costs, and Adobe - only constant. Stupidly - they still developed photoshop so that designers would pay them, since there are no CMYK in the gimp (designers say that they really need it). And they did not spend anything on a specific Vasya. But the bomber spent gasoline, time, depreciation of the car, and could instead carry Vasya Petya. And for the case with software, it’s incorrect to say that adobe can choose between a pirated installation by Vasya and a non-pirated (paid) installation by Petya. Canceling the installation of Vasya does not cancel Petin. So in [131] the logic is false.



asail ©   (2013-05-19 20:45) [133]


> vuk © (19.05.13 19: 53) [127]

> New everything is transferred to subscriptions

So what? Hack it too. They will put some virtual server (you can local), which will validate the subscription to everyone. Or turn off the logic that is knocking on the cloud with a subscription ...
Another thing is if all the code will run in the cloud, and only goui from the client ... But today, it’s not realistic for photoshop, premier, etc. analogs due to the amount of data.
And, behold, a dolphin could. There is an IDE web muzzle, and the compilation itself is on the abracadabra server. Although, it will be broken, most likely ... :)

> at some point, support for new cameras in a RAW converter
> old versions are no longer added and a new one is released
> version of the plugin incompatible with previous versions of PS
> and LR

Does the new Adobe camera make you buy? Do not buy, and there will be no questions ...



TUser ©   (2013-05-19 20:48) [134]

Note. Fixed costs - costs that are independent of the volume of production, for example, a transport tax for a bomb and a programmer for an ad. Variable costs - costs that increase with the growth of production, for example, gasoline and technical support.



asail ©   (2013-05-19 20:49) [135]


> TUser © (19.05.13 20: 45) [132]

> So in [131] the logic is false.

Let's substitute a plane instead of a bomb ... Will it work? The plane flies to love - there will be Vasya Pupkin on it or not. Those. specifically Vasya costs zero ...



robt2   (2013-05-19 20:50) [136]

no need to compare software which is an ephemeral substance in the form of a set of bits, with completely material objects and energy carriers :)
in fact, software is nothing, and after the apocalypse, people will forget that once there was some kind of adobe and they, idiots paid the price of a wagon of grain for photoshop ...



clickmaker ©   (2013-05-19 20:50) [137]

> [131] asail © (19.05.13 20: 37)

these analogies are generally inappropriate. I said about this in my first post



asail ©   (2013-05-19 20:53) [138]


> robt2 (19.05.13/20/50 136:XNUMX) [XNUMX]
> no need to compare software which is an ephemeral substance
> as a set of bits

Are you a programmer? And do you have enough conscience to get paid for an ephemeral substance in the form of a set of bits?



asail ©   (2013-05-19 20:54) [139]


> clickmaker © (19.05.13 20: 50) [137]
>> [131] asail © (19.05.13 20: 37)
>
> these analogies are generally inappropriate

Yes. In [131] it turned out not quite successful ... The new version in [135] is closer.



robt2   (2013-05-19 20:55) [140]


> asail © (19.05.13 20: 53) [138]

I do not work as a programmer and generally have not been working for a year and a half :)
guys guys find me a job ....: (((



Kerk ©   (2013-05-19 20:55) [141]


> TUser © (19.05.13 20: 23) [128]
>
> Kerk © (19.05.13 19: 32) [122]
>
> You explain to me-what profit from Pupkin? He is choosing
> between two options
>
> 1. Pirate Photoshop. In this case, the adob gets nothing,
> except perhaps advertising (if ever Pupkin will
> work as a professional designer, he can buy
> Photoshop - by the way, I personally know one legal installation
> Photoshop for a user who is just used to a pirate
> version).
> 2. One of 999 free analogues, in this case adobe
> gets nothing again.

It remains to answer two questions:
1) What drives Vasya, forcing him to choose a pirated photoshop between a pirated Photoshop and free analogues?
2) What to do with non-free analogues? Thanks to people like Vasya, they will never rise above the plinth. And I described why.



Kerk ©   (2013-05-19 20:56) [142]


> TUser © (19.05.13 20: 27) [129]
>
> Here, for example, why Delphi did not defeat all other systems
> development? There are two reasons for this, one of them is long-term errors.
> marketers in pricing. Because competitors
> all the time it was significantly cheaper.

The explanation for this is simple. This is called cross-subsidization. Googling.



asail ©   (2013-05-19 20:57) [143]


> robt2 (19.05.13/20/55 140:XNUMX) [XNUMX]
>
>> asail © (19.05.13 20: 53) [138]
>
> I do not work as a programmer

Tady understand ...



robt2   (2013-05-19 21:05) [144]


> 1) What drives Vasya

1) for one book / lesson on gimp there are 10000 books / lessons on Photoshop and notice in Russian
2) Photoshop has a bad non-standard interface - it’s impossible to solve without a half liter, but it’s still clumsy at the gimp and it won’t help even 2 liters, and after 2x our person wants to dance and not draw ...
3) where not to spit - photoshop is everywhere, many even see it in the movies and hear it on the radio :)))
4) naturally in any description of Photoshop it is written that it’s cooler than it :)))
5) Fir-trees, yes links to its pirated copy are on any file washer !!!
in general Vasya has no choice - he is doomed



vuk ©   (2013-05-19 21:06) [145]

to asail © (19.05.13 20: 45) [133]:

> Well, what? Hack it too.

Is not a fact. Depends on the implementation.


> Does Adobe make you buy a new camera? Do not buy,
> and there will be no questions ...

Cameras are not eternal. Break down, become obsolete, etc. However, it is precisely for this case that you can use other converters, which there are, and a lot.



robt2   (2013-05-19 21:09) [146]

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robt2   (2013-05-19 21:16) [147]

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Kerk ©   (2013-05-19 21:19) [148]


> robt2 (19.05.13/21/09 146:XNUMX) [XNUMX]
>
Quoted2>> XNUMX) What to do with non-free analogues?
>
> haha, most have no analogues, so to speak,
> help !! even in English !!

They invest all the money in functionality. Thanks to people like Vasya, they don’t have the means to seriously develop such by-products as information. Will such an explanation suit you?

In general, probably, there is no sense in explaining something to someone. Someone just mocks, someone pretends to be a fool, but someone may not pretend.



Kerk ©   (2013-05-19 21:20) [149]

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Es   (2013-05-19 21:21) [150]

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asail ©   (2013-05-19 21:27) [151]

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asail ©   (2013-05-19 21:30) [152]

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TUser ©   (2013-05-19 21:33) [153]

Let's substitute a plane instead of a bomb ... Will it work? The plane flies to love - there will be Vasya Pupkin on it or not. Those. specifically Vasya costs zero ...

The plane is already better. But, firstly, it’s still not zero, even if it doesn’t burst on board, because there is amortization of the seat, the work of the security service, baggage sorters, ticket inspectors, there are all kinds of risks of inappropriate behavior that brings with it on an airplane every passenger and so on.

But the main thing is not even that. Airplane flight is a product that is not sold to Vasya, and not to Petya, but to a group of passengers. The airline is not interested in Vasya, is not interested in Petya, she is interested in - is it possible to sell a sufficient number of tickets for each flight from A to B, right? If possible, flights are launched. And each flight is a single and indivisible product sold to two hundred passengers. If only fifty are gathered on flights from A to B, then soon such flights will be canceled. This is how we buy, say, a concert ticket. On the same single and indivisible product. It is reasonable to assume that each buyer pays his share of the price, right?

Now let's turn to the software campaign. She sells more than one single installation of Photoshop to the whole world, she sells a million separate independent licenses. To launch the product, she reckons that there are a million designers who will buy it. And she is right - there are a million designers who buy it, independently of each other and of Vasily Pupkin.



TUser ©   (2013-05-19 21:39) [154]

It remains to answer two questions:
1) What drives Vasya, forcing him to choose a pirated photoshop between a pirated Photoshop and free analogues?


When I did this, I was driven by simple logic: I have enough photoshop, he does what I need, I don’t do any harm to the adobe, that is, I do nothing wrong. The latter (about damage) was tested experimentally - now I use the jimp (once a quarter), and XnView (once a month), which is why I do not suffer at all. I think I didn’t steal anything.

2) What to do with non-free analogues? Thanks to people like Vasya, they will never rise above the plinth. And I described why.

Practice demonstrates the opposite - rise.



Kerk ©   (2013-05-19 21:41) [155]


> TUser © (19.05.13 21: 39) [154]
>
> It remains to answer two questions:
> 1) What moves Vasya, forcing him between the pirate photoshop
> and choose pirated photoshop for free?
>
> When I did this, I was driven by simple logic: I have Photoshop
> enough, he does what I need, adobe I do no harm
> I do not apply, that is, I do not do anything wrong.

Well, what kind of perverse logic? Well, it's funny. A normal person has the following logic: "I have enough free utility FreeSuperPhotoTool, it does what I need, and photoshop costs money."



TUser ©   (2013-05-19 21:42) [156]

This is called cross-subsidization. Googling.

Are you talking about MS? Well, yes, their environments are cheap specifically so that there are more programs for Windows (main income).



robt2   (2013-05-19 21:46) [157]


> Z.Y. I hope we are talking about the same number of sold
> instances in both cases?

no, of course :) the cheaper the more they buy, and even Vasya will buy to stupidly remove red eyes
these are the elementary foundations of the entire economy (look at the example of China), are you human?



TUser ©   (2013-05-19 21:50) [158]

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robt2   (2013-05-19 21:53) [159]

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знайка   (2013-05-19 22:02) [160]

What are the right all sharply become, how long? :)



clickmaker ©   (2013-05-19 22:04) [161]

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robt2   (2013-05-19 22:18) [162]

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Note: Violation of forum rules



TUser ©   (2013-05-19 22:18) [163]

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TUser ©   (2013-05-19 23:56) [164]

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Юрий Зотов ©   (2013-05-20 00:08) [165]


> TUser © (19.05.13/23/56 XNUMX:XNUMX) [164]
> Re-read branch.

Bravo!



TUser ©   (2013-05-20 00:19) [166]

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Kerk ©   (2013-05-20 00:35) [167]


> TUser © (19.05.13 23: 56) [164]

> I can’t immediately come up with an example of a cheap paid program,
> which suffers from pirated versions of an expensive analogue.

You better come up with an example of some program vital for a home user, the analogues of which are not available cheaply or for free :)



TUser ©   (2013-05-20 00:56) [168]

You better come up with an example of some program vital for a home user, the analogues of which are not available cheaply or for free :)

Why should I invent it? I wrote that your logic is somewhat spherical. That is, yes, it may all be so, I don’t see any contradictions in your reasoning, but it’s not observed in nature.

And so - well, codecs for DVD (suppose, exclusively licensed). Starting with win 7 (or whists?) Are available in the media player, and before that, yes, there were pirates. Well, Linux, of course, but let's say he is not friends with my hardware. And a person who is deprived of viewing the kina, as it is easy to understand, is deprived of basic human rights, for which there will be a struggle in the 21st century, as for an 8-hour working day a century earlier.



Германн ©   (2013-05-20 02:16) [169]


> Dmitry C © (19.05.13 04: 50) [87]
>
>
QuotedXNUMX>> at least in order to have every right to apply
> in
>> product tech support. And do not tell me that treatment
quotedXNUMX>> only "bad" products require technical support. Somehow
quotedXNUMX>> here practice shows that almost any software can
quotedXNUMX>> require such treatment.
>
> Twice appealed in support of life: the first time in Samsung,
> about the fact that there are no Russian letters on the dial
> -the answer was in the spirit of "do not want this." second time in
> MS about sorting files and folders in Explorer (Windows,
> of course, involuntarily honest) - the result is zero.
> These two questions really interested me. And I think
> so with all the major software manufacturers.

But this is just what should be fought for. If we use FreeWare in As is mode, then all claims to our beloved. The authors of this FreeWare owe us nothing. But if we paid for a certain product with "real" money, then those who sold us this product are responsible for the fact that this product works as they stated.
PS
So far, I have never had problems with the technical support of those companies from which I bought anything.



имя   (2013-05-20 03:37) [170]

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wl ©   (2013-05-20 10:11) [179]

as soon as poor Adobi was not declined in this thread.
all the same, it seems to me that for a home user such a professional product is really not needed, and an office will buy it in the office (though it’s not clear how freelancers can get out). Probably paying a pretty penny for the cloud is the most acceptable option, do not use and do not pay, sooner or later all software companies will come to this, well, except of course the OS, the cost of which is added to the hardware



знайка   (2013-05-20 10:22) [180]


> poor adobi
not so poor



wl ©   (2013-05-20 10:25) [181]

Yes, I'm not talking about finance)))



wl ©   (2013-05-20 10:34) [182]

the mobile software market is developing much faster than the "big" one, and now 90% of the programs there (rather even games) are free, but they have built-in purchases (In App Purchase), which you can do without, but the progress will stretch for several months.
To be honest, I like it a lot less than paying once without subsequent expenses



robt2   (2013-05-20 10:49) [183]

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Kerk ©   (2013-05-20 10:50) [184]


> robt2

Polygraphy, Samara .. are you in any way connected with Green Cat?



robt2   (2013-05-20 10:52) [185]


> Kerk © (20.05.13 10: 50) [184]

Nope, I didn’t even hear about her when I worked.
she’s just in the old town, figs get there at rush hour :)



vuk ©   (2013-05-20 10:58) [186]

to wl © (20.05.13 10:11) [179]:

> I still think that for a home user so
> professional product really is not needed

But I’m wondering where you can find a less professional product that supports at least the right color models. On the other hand, yes, few people need a product with as many features as FS, in full. But on the other hand, for some reason there is no product with fewer features, but at the same time those that are needed, and not like, for example, in Photoshop Elements. Here, for example, I would make adobe FS modular, with the ability to buy something like a basic core and separately finish it with the necessary functions for personal needs, there would be much less questions. So no, you have to pay for the whole stuffing.


> Probably pay a pretty penny for the cloud is the most acceptable
> option, do not use and do not pay

For those who bought the full versions and then used them for many years, while the hardware and OS allowed, this turns out to be an unacceptable option.



wl ©   (2013-05-20 10:59) [187]

explain to me how TV shows pay off? take the same game of thrones, each episode requires a frantic amount of money, at least draw the same little dragons, and a new episode appears on torrents on the day of release, with cut ads, can this cut ads on TVs of American housewives really bring so much income



имя   (2013-05-20 11:00) [188]

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robt2   (2013-05-20 11:06) [189]

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имя   (2013-05-20 11:16) [190]

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wl ©   (2013-05-20 11:18) [191]


> vuk © (20.05.13 10: 58) [186]

adobi already distributes a bunch of products for free, but she needs to earn at least something to pay off the work of programmers who saw a flash or don’t know, a pdf reader, for a bunch of platforms



Ega23 ©   (2013-05-20 11:20) [192]

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vuk ©   (2013-05-20 11:22) [193]

to wl © (20.05.13 11:18) [191]:

> adobi and so he gives out a bunch of products for free

Reader and flash are an awesome bunch, yes. : D



wl ©   (2013-05-20 11:27) [194]


> vuk © (20.05.13 11: 22) [193]

if you multiply by all the OS, then it turns out a lot, I immediately recall Windows Mac Linux Linux Android Mayo Symbian Amazon Kindle, different processors different operating systems



vuk ©   (2013-05-20 11:32) [195]

to wl © (20.05.13 11:27) [194]:

> if you multiply by all OS

But do not multiply anything. And if you still need to multiply, then by zero. Because to me, as an end user, these two things can be needed only if someone provides the content I need in the appropriate formats, which, by definition, is the problem of who generates the content, not mine. And how tired are the programmers in adobe, I spit.



wl ©   (2013-05-20 11:45) [196]


> vuk © (20.05.13 11: 32) [195]

it’s somehow not good, labor should still be paid, it’s easy to steal software from the corporation, but in the end, employees will not receive a bonus or something. I mean that people will suffer as a result, not a corporation



vuk ©   (2013-05-20 11:47) [197]

to wl © (20.05.13 11:45) [196]:

> easy to steal software from a corporation

Where did I write about theft? Like nowhere. He wrote exclusively about the fact that there is no way to buy what you need.



wl ©   (2013-05-20 11:55) [198]


> vuk © (20.05.13 11: 47) [197]

in the contest of the branch did not correctly understand your idea, I'm sorry



robt2   (2013-05-20 12:21) [199]


> wl © (20.05.13 11: 27) [194]

if they everywhere promote their flash with pdf then they MUST release free software to play these formats



wl ©   (2013-05-20 12:26) [200]


> robt2 (20.05.13 12: 21) [199]

not at all! nobody forces them! Previously, browsers were also paid, we just got used to not having to pay for it, and the same firefox updates do not arise from nowhere



robt2   (2013-05-20 12:32) [201]

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